00:00:00.02 nextlevelguypodcast so the music and all that sort of stuff. I'll try not to speak as fast. um But thank you so much for coming on the show. It's an absolute honor to feature somebody who not only do I follow, but I admire. And I think you you are doing life-changing work. But for people who maybe don't recognize your name, how would you describe who you are? If somebody met you for a cup tea, how would you introduce what you do? 00:00:25.94 James Ellis Well, first and foremost, I still very much identify by my profession. I'm a clinical psychologist. I spend most of my day working with patients for it in a psychotherapy setting in my office for individual therapy, helping with issues that individuals face, such as loneliness, depression, relationship problems, work problems. Sometimes even substance abuse, substance misuse. I also work with couples and families to repair relationships. So this is a core part of my um identity and my work beyond what you see on social media. 00:01:08.73 nextlevelguypodcast Because it's it's amazing that you do this as a hobby, considering the the joy, the relief, the you know the help that you give to people on a daily basis. But then to come on and give back to people on such a deep level, you know an issue that affects society as such a whole... But it's more than just feeling a wee bit lonely because your friends are away on holiday without you or something like that. It's like that ache in your bones, that real deep-seated thing that gnaws at you, but we don't know how to discuss it. 00:01:38.49 nextlevelguypodcast How would you define loneliness to men who are not great at talking about their feelings, shall we say? 00:01:45.53 James Ellis Sure. Well, loneliness is is ah is an emotional experience. It's a social emotional experience that we're evolutionarily hardwired to have. So whether you're a man or a woman, just being human, we have a ah those pangs of loneliness are natural from millennia ago. And they can come from two things, from not having... 00:02:10.36 James Ellis enough people around, like just ah um an absence of people, social disconnection, we might call it, or there are people around, but you're disconnected in a way that isn't satisfying. The quality of the relationship or the amount of connection doesn't quite... 00:02:29.58 James Ellis dovetail with your nervous system in the way that your heart longs for. So you get that pang of loneliness. So that's why we can be lonely with no because no one is around or not enough people are around or there are people around and we can still feel lonely. 00:02:44.66 nextlevelguypodcast And do you see a sort similarity in what people come to see you about? you know Do they identify it as feeling lonely or do we tend to think it's the wife, it's this, it's the job? 00:02:52.47 James Ellis No. 00:02:56.70 nextlevelguypodcast We make excuses. 00:02:57.42 James Ellis it's a great It's a great question. or even Because the answer is no. and or Or even, I'm depressed or I'm anxious. they they're They're experiencing symptoms of of ah clinical depression or clinical anxiety, having panic attacks, ah drinking too much. 00:03:17.18 James Ellis And those are kind of what get the attention, not the loneliness that's fueling those. So no, it's actually really interesting how loneliness operates very quietly. um and And I liken it to hunger. 00:03:34.18 James Ellis Hunger is a experience you know, we also talk about pangs of hunger, right? Just like you said, pangs of loneliness. Those pangs of hunger we experience from, you know, are day one as a baby. 00:03:48.98 James Ellis And parents or caregivers usually start to put words to that. Babies just cry. And it feels like the world is ending. They don't know what that experience is, but they hear time and time again their caregivers saying, oh, you're just hungry. 00:04:04.39 James Ellis You're hungry. Let me get you a bottle or let me feed you. You're hungry. And so we start to develop a relationship between those people. sensations in our belly area or our salivary glands or whatever it is that it's ah it's an uncomfortable feeling that's designed evolutionarily to get our attention and say go find nutrition you need nutrition in order to survive But very rarely are people doing that with pangs of loneliness and we need it to survive. We need connection to survive. We always have. It's actually a blip on the continuum of human existence that we can survive alone in a studio apartment, like a what that's a one room apartment in America. And we can order our food to be delivered and never see anyone. Our our ah utilities and energy needs are covered. our our Our apartment is going to be heated through the winter. We don't need to see anyone to survive anymore. 00:05:05.75 James Ellis But our bodies don't know that yet. Our brain does not know that yet. So for ah for up until, what is it? I don't know, 100 years, depending on where you are, sometimes less, there are still cultures out there where you can't survive alone. 00:05:20.34 James Ellis so um So that's the thing. it's ah it's that It's supposed to be an uncomfortable experience, Ian, that says you need to do something in order to survive. 00:05:32.60 James Ellis Whatever it is that that's going on for you, you're too alone. You're not going to make it through the winter. So that's why it is a sensation just like hunger, but we don't we're not as trained to recognize it. 00:05:48.50 James Ellis So that is something that I do when people come into my office. and they're depressed or they're anxious or they're drinking too much. And I take take a look at their, I do a social inventory with them and I realize, wow, they're just going to work and coming home and there's no one. 00:06:05.82 James Ellis And there's no, and moreover, their nervous system knows there's no one I can call in a time of need. And that's the thing. Even if we're very busy, We got a lot going on at work. I'm in New York City. People are really, um they're here to for their careers and there's always things buzzing around, bells and whistles. So it's not really a boring place. 00:06:27.22 James Ellis There's a lot to attend to. So it's not boredom, but you know that should you fall on hard times or should you need someone, there might not be anyone in your life. And we have too many people on the planet right now who, when you ask them, who can you call on on in a time of need, they don't have anyone. 00:06:47.00 James Ellis And the nervous system is never going to relax knowing that. You're never going to have inner peace. 00:06:52.34 nextlevelguypodcast Because I've always said it was linked to the caveman days where, you know, if you got cast out your tribe or you didn't, you weren't able to pass your DNA on you, it would literally mean life or death. 00:06:58.12 James Ellis Yeah. 00:07:01.86 nextlevelguypodcast You know, you could be eaten by a saber tooth tiger. Is that what it stems from? That deep CT, like our core building block of who we are? 00:07:11.61 James Ellis Absolutely. That's exactly right. and And there was a big change in my field. So my field was governed by the old man, Sigmund Freud, who develops ah you know the field of clinical psychology and psychotherapy. And he was very influenced by Charles Darwin. ah that That he... he ah our species needs two things to survive, the ability to defend ourselves and the ability to procreate. 00:07:38.14 James Ellis So sex and aggression became Freud's focus on on primary drives in life. 00:07:43.96 nextlevelguypodcast He was big on it. Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:45.62 James Ellis He was big on it. And and there was a ah British psychologist in the 60s, John Bowlby, who said, there's actually something else that governs our survival. And that's what he called attachment. 00:07:58.49 James Ellis That when we come into this world, there's no such thing as just a baby. There's a baby and a mother or a baby and a caregiver. And that dyad is set is critical to the survival. So we actually have a need, yes, to defend ourselves, yes, to procreate at certain at a certain point in life. but also the need to attach a longing in our heart to couple up and and take care of our survival needs. 00:08:26.04 James Ellis We wouldn't have survived without it. 00:08:26.14 nextlevelguypodcast because it Well, I mean, it really made sense to me. i mean, I came from a small fishing village in the Highlands of Scotland. Rock and rock and roll, I know. 00:08:33.72 James Ellis Okay. 00:08:34.32 nextlevelguypodcast um And, you know, you had, say, 400 people in the village. 00:08:35.00 James Ellis Wow. 00:08:38.08 nextlevelguypodcast You knew your neighbours. You looked out for the old lady up the street. You helped, you know, clear the snow out her driveway or you went and got the shopping for this person. You know, you you kind of knew everybody and everything. 00:08:49.75 nextlevelguypodcast And then when I came to the city for the first time, You barely know your neighbors. You might know a head nod as you see them. You might know roughly one person at your work who says hi to you has lunch with you if you're lucky. And then you sit on the bus and don't speak to people you see every day on the same bus journey. You go home and you drink yourself into oblivion you go to a club, promiscuous sex, whatever it is. 00:09:13.94 nextlevelguypodcast Do you see certain habits now? it' this Is research and science focusing on and psychology on the loneliness because it's a bigger epidemic now? Or has it changed really at all? 00:09:28.79 nextlevelguypodcast We just call it different things. 00:09:30.95 James Ellis It's a great question. a couple of things. Number one, no, I'll just get that out of the way. I don't think the field of psychology is focusing on it at all, or or very little. It's not something that's on people's radars. ah Everyone is, sadly, what I'm seeing is um not enough people in my field are doing a social inventory of their patients. They are seeing depression as faulty thinking. Well, if we could just get you to think more positively and kind of change your mind and cognitively restructure things, maybe then you'll you'll be more at peace. But they don't ever, you know, there's there's a big focus on, know, 00:10:13.82 James Ellis individuality on ah you hear all of the health crazes especially mental health crazes are about a new pill a new breathing technique a new cognitive technique yoga when when you're feeling down yeah no one ever says why don't you turn to the person next to you and tell them about it or if you're if someone tells you about it why don't you turn to them and listen you know It's such an individualistic culture um that we feel like all of the treatments must be individual or autonomous in some way. 00:10:47.80 James Ellis ah So this is ah ah something I really push for is is ah how connection is healing. Connection is the cure. And, you know, I want to return also to what you so how you described this lovely village that I now want to visit. 00:11:05.43 James Ellis Because number one, I love... 00:11:06.27 nextlevelguypodcast I really want to see it. 00:11:09.27 James Ellis so you wouldn't want to? I happen to... 00:11:11.08 nextlevelguypodcast I'll happily show you around, just don't live there. it's It's like Game of Thrones at times. 00:11:14.90 James Ellis Okay, okay. 00:11:18.78 James Ellis And a lot of people a lot of people say that about their their small towns and their villages. But one of the things we know, at least in America, I'm not sure about in Europe, but in America, um cities are lonelier than small towns and suburbs. their Loneliness is is at much higher rates. And I guess you would probably imagine that by as as ah as you described, you know, your own move from this village to this town. 00:11:43.41 James Ellis But I am talking about, my work focuses on the modern loneliness epidemic. That's what I call it, the modern loneliness epidemic. Yes, the experience of loneliness has been around forever. That pang that we feel is evolutionarily baked into us for a long time. 00:12:01.98 James Ellis And I think things have changed. You know, um i also... ah grew up in a city, but I was ah around my extended relatives, my grandparents, my great grandparents who were in smaller rural ah communities. 00:12:18.60 James Ellis my My great grandma had 20 pregnancies. She had 14 children, 11 survived early childhood. 00:12:22.20 nextlevelguypodcast Jeez. 00:12:27.60 James Ellis And by the way, my great grandma died when I was 16, so I knew her very well. ah my my My mom was one of seven. 00:12:31.66 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 00:12:35.26 James Ellis i'm I'm one of two and my brother and I each have one child. So so so families have shrunk massively. there's just our our Our herd has thinned ah over over the most recent generations pretty drastically. So there's less people. And then the the the other part of the modern loneliness epidemic is exactly what you said. 00:12:58.36 James Ellis People have moved for wonderful opportunities. When I grew up in this massive family, a massive extended family, I should say, everyone was in the same, i would say, 40 mile radius, 50 mile radius, probably less, probably 30 mile radius, if i'm if I'm being honest. So we could get we could all get to one another and people would come together at my great grandma's house for family dinners and there would be 40 people 30, 40 on any Sunday. um And it was my generation. My my father went to college one state away and then came back you know after finishing school. 00:13:41.43 James Ellis He was probably the first one to do that. But then everyone in my generation took opportunities to go to college, to university and in various states around the United States, which is obviously massive, that you can be a plane ride away. 00:13:50.67 nextlevelguypodcast Thank you. 00:13:55.03 James Ellis And then they stay there, they get married there, or they move to a completely different city for a wonderful opportunity. but um But so now ah that's another facet of the modern loneliness epidemic. 00:14:09.82 James Ellis is this mobility, which can be really exciting and it can offer so much, but it does come at a cost and a cost that we ah don't often acknowledge. No one prepares you for that. I think in in um modern child rearing to be a good parent is to raise a child who knows what they're what they want what they're good at what they're going for and then to help them find that you don't hear parents anymore who are saying well what's our family value is that you stay close by 00:14:42.42 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. 00:14:42.58 James Ellis I don't know when I live says that I'm not sure about in Scotland, but no one where I live says that um it's always like, yeah, go find yourself. If that takes you across the country or to another across an ocean, so be it. 00:14:57.02 James Ellis and And they're not saying there is a cost. I think i think that's one thing that that we should be doing more of is yes, be aware of those opportunities, but be aware of what's lost too and be prepared to um compensate for it. um I'll say one of the things about the modern loneliness epidemic that I got to very quickly and what I loved about um when I first logged onto your website and saw that what what your work is about kind of the the optimization of life through work. 00:15:28.82 James Ellis And i think that's, if if I can boil down what we're called on to do in the modern loneliness epidemic, it's to accept the fact that in order to optimize our physical health, our mental health, and our social health, because they're all interconnected, we have to work much harder than we ever did. 00:15:47.54 James Ellis We do not have the luxury of built-in connections through large families. And if we do, they're not all around anymore. They've gone to different places. So we have to work hard to replicate what that village used to hold for you. 00:16:03.42 James Ellis And sometimes we try to do it in one person. We try to do that in our in our romantic partner. and And people you know wonder why why ah relationships are so pressured these days because you have to be um you know the the the what a whole village used to represent in one relationship. Because that's what I see a lot of here is I'm not lonely, I have a girlfriend. 00:16:28.76 James Ellis But she has to be your best friend, your cousin, your uncle, your grandparent, and ah your your passionate sexy lover all in one. 00:16:34.01 nextlevelguypodcast that's 00:16:38.32 James Ellis you know 00:16:39.35 nextlevelguypodcast Has to be your best friend, has to be your social confidant, somebody you got. yeah And yeah I think we all know those guys who disappear for six months whenever they meet somebody new and they become their whole life. 00:16:45.34 James Ellis Yeah. 00:16:52.18 James Ellis Yeah. 00:16:52.68 nextlevelguypodcast And then they break up because she thinks, whoa, I don't need this level of stress. 00:16:53.82 James Ellis Yeah. 00:16:57.72 nextlevelguypodcast And then he comes back and it's sheepish. And then as soon as he meets somebody else, disappears again. I can already think about three names in my head. I better not say them out loud. And how did you find that going from that level of family dynamic, that connection, that bond? 00:17:14.37 nextlevelguypodcast Because I'm like you, I come from a family where we all ate around the table. We all got together for big events and stuff. And, you know, the whole family came together. To suddenly come down here where I barely knew nobody else, like, oh, it hit me. 00:17:27.47 nextlevelguypodcast Like, I really felt tight chest, et cetera. 00:17:28.15 James Ellis Yeah. Yeah. 00:17:30.00 nextlevelguypodcast How did it affect you? Was there a moment in your life where loneliness it hit you? or is it just the work that you see? Is it certain authors who've inspired you to go in this field? 00:17:41.72 James Ellis it It is personal because I do live 600 miles from like my ah closest family member. um my My family's all in the middle of of America. And I moved to the East Coast about 30 years ago. 00:17:55.32 James Ellis um And I moved to my particular town five years ago. um So it i have definitely experienced it. um And I... and it it's different based on the person that you are. 00:18:08.02 James Ellis I think I'm someone who has always internalized um the benefits of connection. So I have worked for it and I have enjoyed the work of it, whether it's um finding friends and mates or whether it's ah romantic. 00:18:16.40 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 00:18:27.70 James Ellis um So, I feel like i've I've had some skill and some natural proclivities that have really helped me. um But it's been different. You know, when i when i left at, I left my home at 16 to go to a a boarding school, um also about 800 miles away. 00:18:47.00 James Ellis And that was very tight knit. And it's very similar to how I hear this story a lot um with with the patients that I work with. um A lot of my patients are, you know, new arrivals to New York from university. They've taken a big job. 00:19:02.90 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 00:19:03.77 James Ellis and um And they are shocked to find out that they're lonely. They you know grew up in in ah middle school, high school. These are very social experiences, at least in America. 00:19:17.08 James Ellis um yeah there's there's ah you're You're in in classes with with your friends, you're eating lunch. Then there's all the clubs you have, whether you're doing photography for the yearbook or you're ah playing basketball or you're playing soccer or you're in the theater club or you're in the band there's so many opportunities to connect and then they go off to university and it's the same thing there's ah the the courses we have I don't know if you guys have these things and Europe, the the ah Greek life is what we call it, where there's sororities and fraternities. 00:19:49.04 nextlevelguypodcast Oh, sororities and... 00:19:52.19 James Ellis Yeah. so um so and then And then there's you know shared spaces, usually a big lawn where people congregate or dining halls. So there's all all sorts of ways. 00:20:02.66 James Ellis I remember parenthetically, actually, i was on a a tour in in the UK and in my previous life as an actor. 00:20:14.65 James Ellis And I stayed in the, um for three weeks, I think it was, I stayed in the University of Edinburgh dorms. 00:20:22.06 nextlevelguypodcast I'm 00:20:22.17 James Ellis And that was where they they housed us during the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And I remember, like I think I was trying to find a laundry room and I went down to the basement and there was a pub down there. 00:20:33.86 James Ellis And i was like, know what no one has a pub in American universities, but there were just people chilling out with a pint and a book or chatting and playing chess. It was so lovely. i was like, i I actually like looked into enrolling and in the University of Edinburgh because I i thought that was so exciting. 00:20:48.88 nextlevelguypodcast i'm I'm surprised you only found one, to be honest. you know, it's... 00:20:54.49 James Ellis Just, yeah yeah, really. This was just in the bottom of a very kind of nondescript dormitory. 00:20:56.73 nextlevelguypodcast a 00:21:01.97 James Ellis Anyways, but then but but to to finish my story, a lot of my patients then take a great job in New York and they find a cheap apartment, which is usually kind of on the outskirts of the city. 00:21:13.02 James Ellis It takes a while to get to. And they're shocked that they are lonely. They have no one to talk to. And they don't, um for the first time, they're confronting that, how do you do this? 00:21:24.82 James Ellis How do i how do i connect? with How do I meet friends? I don't even know how in this in this setup. um so So that's something that is a typical trajectory that I see is um you know young people really not knowing where to start when they're transplanted. 00:21:45.14 nextlevelguypodcast because I was just thinking like it sounded like you were discussing me at that point because I remember coming from a place where people would say, used to have friends who you're really good at making friends. 00:21:50.17 James Ellis yeah 00:21:55.62 nextlevelguypodcast You can go and speak to anybody and you can connect to anybody. And I used to have a sense of pride about it. And then I came down to a few cities and i got on with a few people connected, but i never felt it was a deep level of connection. 00:22:09.72 nextlevelguypodcast I was probably deeply homesick as well. So I went to the doctor. 00:22:13.11 James Ellis Yeah. 00:22:13.59 nextlevelguypodcast Oh, you're depressed. 00:22:14.42 James Ellis Yeah. 00:22:14.78 nextlevelguypodcast Oh, so he got and ssri he's very you 00:22:19.26 James Ellis Right. 00:22:19.58 nextlevelguypodcast what's What's your opinion then on that healing modality? Are we fixing a symptom rather than the issue? 00:22:27.54 James Ellis Sometimes, for sure. If what's going on is you're lonely and you're homesick and you and a doctor says, those look like signs of depression, let's put you on an SSRI versus doing a social inventory. I think that's a mistake. 00:22:44.60 James Ellis I think that's a clinical mistake because I can't tell you how many times I've met with people who have been treated that exact same way. And when I understand the fact that they're lonely and we start now we're now calling it social prescribing, 00:22:59.90 James Ellis Yeah, you've got to go find people. You've got to go find your people and keep showing up. And you have to have a network. You have to have someone. You have to be able to answer that question of, should I fall on hard times? Who has my back? 00:23:14.65 James Ellis You need to have someone. And when you do, you're going to feel a lot better. 00:23:16.11 nextlevelguypodcast It's 00:23:18.90 James Ellis And people do. They feel a lot better. And people who have been treated for depression meet ah ah have a romantic relationship, a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and all of a sudden, they're not as depressed anymore. 00:23:31.83 James Ellis So yeah, i think I think it is something that that should be ah ah you looked at carefully before medication is prescribed. 00:23:32.21 nextlevelguypodcast funny that. 00:23:41.38 James Ellis Although I will say there are certain situations where sometimes actually the psychiatric intervention, like a medication, helps address loneliness. For example, in people who have social anxiety, they get kind of panicky and they avoid social situations because of their anxiety. 00:24:00.09 James Ellis If we give them a little medication it down-regulates their system, they feel a lot more open to ah taking those social risks. So I'm not saying it's it's never it should never be the first course of action because sometimes it is actually needed. 00:24:15.72 nextlevelguypodcast Because I remember my mom would be like, no, no, you just need to go out and meet people. you know though You don't go on a tablet that's going to have all these side effects. 00:24:21.65 James Ellis Yeah. 00:24:23.43 nextlevelguypodcast You just need to go meet people. And it reminds of that meme where it's like, are you really depressed or are you just surrounded by arseholes? You know, it's... we good Because let's face it, there's a lot of them just now. 00:24:36.86 nextlevelguypodcast i mean, you've said in some of your videos that loneliness is a signal. It's not an actual flaw in the person. So what is it trying to tell us? 00:24:43.55 James Ellis That's right. 00:24:44.19 nextlevelguypodcast Is it saying basically we need to be part of a tribe? We need to be part of like a setting. What's the message behind loneliness? How should we actually see it rather than feel it? 00:24:56.89 James Ellis Yes, it's ah loneliness is a signal that we need connection, that we need people. and And it's interesting, sometimes, you know I'm not someone who thinks that the the only solution is a deep relationship. 00:25:12.63 James Ellis it Research shows it is really beneficial just to go out and um and get your coffee and talk to a cashier who's asking you if you want a decaf or regular, just and then taking your your money and giving you change and saying hello. 00:25:12.57 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 00:25:29.86 James Ellis that's We call it micro connections. that really also down regulates the nervous system and can be incredibly sad. These are things that depending on where you were during during the the COVID ah pandemic, um if you were kind of locked down, these were the thing and getting everything delivered. 00:25:47.74 James Ellis These were the things that people felt immediately. Yeah, you could go on to Zoom and and talk to your your grandma or your aunt or your cousins. or your sibling, but you weren't getting a newspaper at the newspaper stand, or you weren't getting a coffee at a coffee shop. 00:26:07.13 James Ellis ah so those are And you weren't saying hello to someone in the elevator or at the reception desk of your office. So it's all of those micro connections that got lost as well. 00:26:17.85 James Ellis So yes, loneliness is a signal saying that we need connection, we're deprived of something. And it can be depth depth of current relationships, it can be you you can be lonely in a marriage. 00:26:33.72 James Ellis Some of the loneliest people are actually in ah in a marriage that isn't going well. um So it means you need to work on your relationship or it just means you need to find your people. 00:26:47.06 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah, COVID was a rough time for a lot because there was a like the old grannies, you saw that, you know, maybe they only spoke to the bus driver and the to or the taxi driver. They only spoke to the cashier where they went and got their daily paper and they had, would leave them with no human contact. 00:27:02.13 nextlevelguypodcast And it it's scary for a lot of people. i mean, a lot of young people have work, you know, where we can hide our feelings because we're busy. 00:27:05.91 James Ellis Devastating. 00:27:09.18 James Ellis Right, right. And they just went on to Zoom. Yeah, yeah. 00:27:11.77 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. 00:27:12.18 James Ellis They went on to Zoom, but the pensioners didn't didn't have that luxury. Yeah. 00:27:16.70 nextlevelguypodcast And when does it become sort of temporary issue where a bit lonely because we're away from family to an actual chronic situation, like a syndrome or and an an issue where we go, okay, that's actually making me drink. 00:27:27.22 James Ellis Hmm. 00:27:30.96 nextlevelguypodcast That's making me turn to promiscuous sex, to drugs, to staying in my house and hoarding. what What kind of, when does it become over the line between a, yeah, he's just lonely too. Okay, we need to do something here. 00:27:48.60 James Ellis Well, it depends. i think it depends on the on the person. um And this is maybe a good place to look at the differences between men and women. 00:27:59.90 James Ellis um But even, you know, i that there is a generalization that's worth looking at. um But even, you know, within men and women, there are some people who can tolerate it longer um and and ah have balance in their life in other ways, whether... 00:28:18.80 James Ellis it's a pet or a craft or a um another sense of of purpose and mattering. um But yeah, that that's that's a question where it really depends. And I think what I'm more interested in is making sure that my field and the field of education and the field of healthcare and medicine does that work of um helping people understand that it is ah something that's operating on them so that they learn to tune into themselves. 00:28:56.02 James Ellis Because that's what I'm seeing really is the problem. If we tune into ourselves and we understand those signals for what they are, then we know where our threshold is. And that's what's more important. 00:29:05.18 nextlevelguypodcast Hmm. So can it ever be a good thing then if if you're you know this signal is coming to say we need to change, you know that we're we're not we're taking it as ah a painful scenario where we should be saying, oh, that's a sign I need to go meet people? 00:29:14.20 James Ellis Yeah. 00:29:20.08 nextlevelguypodcast Hmm. 00:29:21.66 James Ellis Precisely. That's it. Right. It's an opportunity when we tune into it. When we recognize it, that's when you get a gold star. you don't I wouldn't want to you know get ah give people gold stars only for meeting friends and connecting. It's the recognition that you're disconnected or that you're lonely or that you're not seen in the way that your heart longs for. 00:29:44.79 James Ellis When you recognize that's a pang of loneliness, gold star right there. You did something impressive for yourself because so much we were just overriding our signals. and we learn to we're depending on what kind of upbringing you have um i see it all the time i have an 11 year old son so it's starting to get into you know more homework more obligations and um and and i and also i think being in manhattan ah in New York City where people, it's like high achievers come from all over the world to my city. 00:30:17.72 James Ellis And they have learned they they they've learned to override all of those signals for connection because if they don't go out with their mates for a pint or they don't go out with their mates to kick a soccer ball around, if they stay inside and study a little bit longer, they're gonna get rewarded for that. 00:30:37.11 nextlevelguypodcast Thank 00:30:40.92 James Ellis So people with this high achieving mentality or who come from high achieving families have been trained, conditioned, and rewarded for ignoring or overriding the signal of loneliness. 00:30:54.04 James Ellis and And it works because they get some sort of feedback when they get an A on an exam or an A as as a grade, or they get into that university that is so competitive, or that graduate program, or they land that job because they've been able to show that their grade point average is outstanding. So there's a lot of positive reinforcement for overriding the signal of loneliness. And then these people get into their careers, everything kind of settles. There's not as much, um 00:31:28.95 James Ellis ah ah there's there's not as many quick achievement markers that can satiate them and they start really succumbing to that loneliness and are shocked that that's even operating on them. 00:31:42.94 nextlevelguypodcast because it's it's a problem with society the way we value things now. you know We say, no, no, it's your career. 00:31:48.31 James Ellis Yeah. Yeah. 00:31:49.97 nextlevelguypodcast It's what you make and it's your money value. 00:31:52.09 James Ellis Yeah. 00:31:53.37 nextlevelguypodcast It's not like, did you raise good kids? Is it not that do you have a happy life? It's oh did you know it's the crush it mentality you know you have to work 24 7 and my mom used to always say that you work to live you don't live to work and I think that's something a lot of us forget you know it's we tend to make life um equal our work and 00:31:59.14 James Ellis Right. 00:32:15.90 nextlevelguypodcast That's kind of why I wanted to start the podcast. was thinking there must be more to it than coming home, having a pint, however i a few burgers on a weekend and going out and getting drunk and chatting to some girl that I would never really want to spend time with and in a club that I didn't ever want to be and then come back and go, oh, I wonder why I'm unhappy. And um I think that's what you were saying earlier was that we can be in a room with people and still feel lonely. 00:32:41.99 nextlevelguypodcast What's the difference then between you know proximity to people to actually are having a presence there? 00:32:42.89 James Ellis Yes. Mm-hmm. 00:32:48.02 nextlevelguypodcast you know like but Obviously, you do with your family. And then to real connection, where does the line or how does it change between, like I can go into the city tomorrow and be around hundreds and hundreds of people. 00:33:00.70 nextlevelguypodcast But no one will speak to me unless I go, oh, can I get X or can I buy this? Somebody might stop and say hi, like an old lady or whatever. But most people go on about their daily basis because nobody wants to take the risk of getting attacked or whatever. 00:33:14.17 James Ellis Right. 00:33:16.25 nextlevelguypodcast Where does that line between being with people to actual connection, how does it change? 00:33:25.85 James Ellis It depends because I think one of the things that feels really good in in when we are connected is obviously with someone who gets us and we get them. There's a certain alignment that happens um and it's felt. It can be energetic. It can be um intellectual. 00:33:49.21 James Ellis It can be based on humor. um It can be based on shared interests. But there are certain things that places where we align and something settles. 00:34:01.98 James Ellis And I can't even think of all of them right now. I don't know all of them. I don't, it hasn't been researched. I can't be everyone. um But, ah but we, I think we all know that feeling where, 00:34:15.03 James Ellis we chat with someone or we're in someone's presence and it's kind of like a human Prozac. It just settles us and it makes us feel calmer and happier. 00:34:27.64 James Ellis um So finding those people is, is important. And that's where, you know, I, ah I often think about um the differences in, in different generations, you know, 00:34:43.73 James Ellis I mentioned my great-grandmother had 20 pregnancies, ultimately 11 children who survived. And then she started having grandchildren and great-grandchildren. there were always so many people um at at my great-grandma's house. I don't think she ever... 00:35:03.61 James Ellis was lonely in the sense of not having enough people around. If anything, having a break from people was what she needed. She was, let me catch a break. Let me catch a nap. Let me go out. You guys don't bother me. right like she was always so There were so many people around in that house always. 00:35:21.22 nextlevelguypodcast makes sense 00:35:21.32 James Ellis So she had plenty of people around, but I don't know that I could say she was never lonely. maybe maybe there were parts of of my grandmother who that that were never able to be seen because she was strapped down with 11 children and she had a ah very kind of rigorous homestead life where she grew and raised most of her own food. So if she wasn't tending the children, she was tending to the garden or to the animals. It was a 00:35:51.64 James Ellis a packed life. She had she didn't have ah indoor plumbing. So she had to you know wash clothes. there She was always busy. She always had her hands busy. She didn't have time. Maybe she wanted to um go to a nightclub and go dancing with someone. Maybe, um you know, she she ah wanted to be able to have friends outside of the the town or her church. i don't know. You know, but so so I think that's one of the things and and certainly in more repressive cultures ah where, ah you know, 00:36:27.29 James Ellis where women are shielded in particular ways, or women can't be a part of society in certain ways, you know, maybe they have a lot of children and a lot of family members around, but they can't be the type of person that they want to be and to be seen and have that reflected back through social experiences that would, ah so so I think there can often be, i don't know, you know, there's kind of that um Virginia Woolf type of loneliness, if you've read some of Virginia Woolf's texts of just, there's people around, but she's deeply lonely. 00:36:59.91 James Ellis She's not seen. She can't actualize it. She was obviously very depressed, but we don't know the chicken or the egg. 00:37:07.82 nextlevelguypodcast I love that idea of a human Prozac, like with certain people that you just connect with. Because I can remember a guy I met in the gym just randomly, I accidentally took the bar that he was using. 00:37:13.17 James Ellis Yeah. Yeah. 00:37:18.09 nextlevelguypodcast He had just gone over to get some water. And he said something like, oh, sorry, I'm using that. And was all right, sorry, mate. And i went I just randomly had this feeling to just say, oh, what's your necklace? Because he has like a Thor hammer necklace. 00:37:31.61 nextlevelguypodcast Two minutes in, I felt like I'd known this guy my whole life. We were chatting away, and he's still one of my best mates now. And it was just that moment, and there was no logic to why, if but I just felt that feeling. 00:37:38.47 James Ellis That's fantastic. 00:37:43.48 nextlevelguypodcast And is that why you see a lot of guys being angry nowadays? Because we grieve the life that we were promised when we were younger, that you're going to go out there, you're going to achieve big things, you're going to meet all these people, and then suddenly when we're thrown out there, we don't have any life skills, and then we go... 00:38:00.60 nextlevelguypodcast How do I meet people? how Oh, wait, you're giving me all this work and I've got no chance to go and meet people outside of this oh you're not, you know, I'm not meeting the girls that I used to meet in my in my small village. 00:38:13.56 nextlevelguypodcast So I've got no one to date. Oh, I go into a restaurant and there's a thousand people, whereas normally there'd be 10 and I know everybody. 00:38:21.82 James Ellis Hmm. 00:38:22.26 nextlevelguypodcast ah Are men grieving the life that we were promised that we're not getting? Is there a bit of that behind it? 00:38:28.31 James Ellis Perhaps. I haven't thought about it from that perspective, to be honest, but there's certainly a lot of wisdom behind it, I think. Yeah. Yeah. mean, when when we can't get... Anger is an emotion um that you know sometimes we experience because ah for to to protect ourselves for safety reasons, um ah to so secure our livelihood. But anger is an emotion that we also experience when something we want is blocked. 00:38:57.43 James Ellis ah Anger is natural in those in those situations. So I love the way in which you're talking about it, of that frustration that builds from not being able to access the type of human connection that we might long for, that we might want, that we might really need in order to optimize um our our vitality. 00:39:19.58 nextlevelguypodcast Because it's something that it kind of struck me the other day. is like I remember feeling annoyed. And I was thinking, what am I actually annoyed about? And i was sitting and writing out some stuff. And it suddenly dawned me that, oh, my podcast should be better than it is. 00:39:32.15 nextlevelguypodcast Like, it starts, oh, but I should be doing this because I've watched this video. oh, I should be able to do this class, even though it's something that's thousands of pounds. you know In my head, I'm building this up, but I'm told we can be anything we want, we can do anything, we can go and achieve any dream we want. 00:39:50.58 nextlevelguypodcast And a lot of guys are not given the social skills, the... the life skills, you see it with girls, they've they're a lot tighter. you know they They're a lot more emotional. 00:39:59.38 James Ellis Yes. Yes. 00:40:00.89 nextlevelguypodcast They can talk and be open. It's like you were saying earlier about the difference between men and women. Men tend have the surface level, but you can have then guys who will know each other like within 10 minutes, like they've known each other a whole life. 00:40:14.87 nextlevelguypodcast That's few and far between at the minute. 00:40:15.06 James Ellis Yeah, yeah. 00:40:17.37 nextlevelguypodcast how How do you see the difference between men and women? 00:40:18.23 James Ellis Yeah. 00:40:19.89 nextlevelguypodcast Why do we stay on surface level as men? 00:40:24.50 James Ellis Well, a couple of things. One... something you're saying is something I see in my work all the time. There is a huge difference between men and women. You know, in in psychotherapy, when you have a ah therapy session, you're talking about parts of your lives that are um deep. You're lifting up the hood and taking a peek underneath at what's underneath. 00:40:51.76 James Ellis you know, I hear men often say things like, I've never said this out loud, or I've never told anyone this before, or I can't believe I'm saying this for the first time. And there's something really sacred about it. i love working with men for this reason. It is so sacred. They are literally accessing parts of themselves right in front of me um that are that that that has never been articulated or shared with anyone else. 00:41:23.73 James Ellis And with women, most women have already told seven of their girlfriends before they've told me this really deep part of this vulnerable part of their existence. 00:41:32.62 nextlevelguypodcast Yep. Yeah. 00:41:33.50 James Ellis as there There are exceptions. There are definitely exceptions, but you're right. There's some way in which they are socialized into that. um I think there's a couple of things. Number one, women don't grow up having to prove that they're a woman. 00:41:52.34 nextlevelguypodcast yeah 00:41:52.57 James Ellis That's big. Almost nowhere do women have to prove that they're a woman. there There might be some exceptions, and so but not to the extent that men have to prove that they're men. One of the worst things that can happen to a boy is a boy being called a girl. 00:42:09.40 James Ellis And it's usually coming from something emotional or vulnerable. We get schooled very early with this. Something vulnerable happens, there's tears or there's a reaction that that's vulnerable, and you get snickered at and someone says, what are you, a girl? Or look or or mocking, look at him, he looks like a girl. 00:42:31.06 nextlevelguypodcast No. 00:42:31.38 James Ellis And you learn very quickly. 00:42:31.66 nextlevelguypodcast Telling the monophenola, yeah. 00:42:33.88 James Ellis Man up. Yeah. And of course, right. 00:42:34.76 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. 00:42:35.40 James Ellis it can It can happen amongst other boys, but it can also happen back at home too, right? ah with With our, with our, the generations above us. 00:42:42.76 nextlevelguypodcast right. 00:42:43.51 James Ellis And so we learn usually really on early on, don't, Talk about the vulnerable vulnerable parts with ah with the guys. This isn't something that we do. It's changing. 00:42:56.70 James Ellis It's definitely changing. And I think that that I have a lot of hope for the future there. ah If anything, you know um again, I'm not sure about the stats in Europe, but for the last several decades here, 55% of marriages end in divorce. 00:43:15.64 James Ellis And what that's meant is that a lot of children are being raised by women in households that only have women or are female dominated in some way. So, um, I, I see this with the younger patients that I work with. 00:43:29.40 James Ellis You can, it's, it's pretty clear the younger a guy is, the more likely he is to be able to just speak from places of emotional vulnerability right off the bat and have guys who he can do that with. 00:43:43.04 James Ellis Um, 00:43:43.16 nextlevelguypodcast what 00:43:44.50 James Ellis The older, the the more blocks there are around this very issue. So so that that's something that I think is longstanding and has operated on men's ability to um find mates to confide in. 00:44:03.67 nextlevelguypodcast Because I was thinking about like the rise of like incels and all this kind of nonsense where but yeah lot of guys are blaming women. you know They're not looking at themselves and thinking, oh, there's something I need to do here. There's something I need to fix. 00:44:16.17 nextlevelguypodcast It's always got to be someone else's fault. It's got to be that it's a woman's fault for not finding them attractive. There's a lot of young guys who... there's a lot of young guys who 00:44:27.05 James Ellis Society's fault, yeah. Yeah. 00:44:28.44 nextlevelguypodcast They have this ball of fury and they don't know how to deal with it. And it is that lack of... 00:44:32.49 James Ellis Mm-hmm. 00:44:32.76 nextlevelguypodcast And you see these ah camps now where guys meet up and they go and do a project. Like they build a motorbike together or the, you know, like the Andy Shedd thing where they all get together and they play games or they do social stuff together. 00:44:45.79 James Ellis Mm-hmm. 00:44:46.18 nextlevelguypodcast And it's just that's the first time maybe a guy's had any social life... 00:44:50.52 James Ellis Yes. 00:44:50.82 nextlevelguypodcast i' so yeah 00:44:51.67 James Ellis And I would be willing to bet, this is not scientific at all, but I imagine myself as a researcher of incels, if I had camera footage of their playground experiences in ah in kindergarten and you know the first few grades, I'm sure they would be that boy that was didn't fit in with the other guys, that was mocked, that had something going on for themselves. I'm almost positive. 00:45:18.36 James Ellis that would be part of their ah their developmental social history. 00:45:22.67 nextlevelguypodcast And I suppose it links then to what you were saying earlier about um you know people in relationships and why we prioritize relationships as friendships fall away as we get older, is that you then have a partner who does the social aspect for you. 00:45:38.23 nextlevelguypodcast You can be with people by sitting with her while she chats to the people at the party. 00:45:39.45 James Ellis Yes. 00:45:43.39 nextlevelguypodcast She's the emotional person who asks you and gets you to open up about your feelings. 00:45:43.77 James Ellis Yeah. 00:45:48.03 nextlevelguypodcast She kind of is the conduit where you interact with the world. 00:45:52.86 James Ellis Yes. 00:45:53.14 nextlevelguypodcast I never really thought about that. via I kind of see changes in people when they end relation long-term relationships rather than... It would be quite interesting. 00:46:01.40 James Ellis Men suffer. Men suffer. it is it is there's There's research showing this. one I think what you're speaking to is men are really terrible at what we call social initiation. 00:46:16.84 nextlevelguypodcast No. 00:46:17.02 James Ellis Just... picking up the phone and either texting or calling and saying, what are you up to this weekend? Usually, if if you're in a relationship with a woman, the woman's going to do that and say, oh we're meeting with the Freedmen's this weekend, or we're meeting with Chuck and Lori this weekend. And the guy says, okay. and And you're right. It's held until the woman dies or there's a divorce. And um it's really fascinating and sad to see what happens after divorce. 00:46:52.06 James Ellis women usually rebound pretty quickly. um they've they've are They chat with their girlfriends, their girlfriends commiserate with them, and men kind of move out. And there's this apartment complex near me where a friend recently divorced, and now he lives there. The wife is still in the in the home that the kids were raised in. And it's a bunch of divorced guys, and it is just so depressing. They're all kind of... 00:47:18.90 James Ellis out there walking their dogs with their heads down like they just got their ass handed to them and they don't know what to do yeah yeah yeah so 00:47:27.59 nextlevelguypodcast It's like life, they can only you can only be valuable with a partner. Yeah. 00:47:32.73 James Ellis Yeah, yeah. 00:47:33.08 nextlevelguypodcast Okay. 00:47:33.57 James Ellis And it's all because of social. And and and um my friend in particular who got recently divorced is brilliantly social. He lights up a room, but he's just kind of terrible at at um at initiating. He doesn't think to initiate. And what he really wants is a girlfriend to do it for him again or a wife to do it for him again. But he he's got all of the chops and and he's he's really ah fun to be around. 00:48:00.21 nextlevelguypodcast it's always annoying, isn't it, when you can see that in a person. they you They just get talked over or they're in a job where they're so dominated that they they don't want to do anything. 00:48:10.53 nextlevelguypodcast They barely speak up now. you know Or you see a change in somebody and you kind of go... 00:48:13.13 James Ellis Right. 00:48:15.22 nextlevelguypodcast They used to be this energetic ball of fun and energy, and suddenly it's like they lose a partner. They go into a job where they're not really getting a chance to be out and meet people or their way from their family. 00:48:28.42 James Ellis Yeah. 00:48:28.37 nextlevelguypodcast I mean, I know for myself, I changed dramatically. 00:48:29.56 James Ellis Yeah. 00:48:31.49 nextlevelguypodcast I was off i still don't think I'm the Ian of the old. i know I've changed a lot and improved stuff, but I still feel like a shell 00:48:39.29 James Ellis You went through divorce? 00:48:40.97 nextlevelguypodcast Oh, sorry, I'm just like moving away. from like I got homesick and I left all my friends stuff um yeah and stuff. 00:48:45.77 James Ellis Oh, from that village. Yeah, yeah. 00:48:47.65 nextlevelguypodcast And then I met a bunch of people in another village. like in Well, it's a city now. but And then when I moved to this new city here, all my friends have gone married, they've had kids, and I'm suddenly going... what the hell happened? 00:48:58.82 nextlevelguypodcast I feel like a shell of myself and I don't know how to get back out there and do this. 00:49:01.56 James Ellis Mm. 00:49:04.50 nextlevelguypodcast And for guys who are in that situation, like, you know, the divorcees, the young guys who are wanting better connections, how do we get out there? 00:49:05.26 James Ellis Mm. 00:49:13.47 nextlevelguypodcast Because it's the thought of me going out to say, say I met you when we're out in a ah bar or whatever, and I started saying, do you know what? I'm actually feeling a bit shitty. I've got, you know, i like the second I start speaking emotion, you'd be like, 00:49:25.20 nextlevelguypodcast Well, obviously not you, but you know you go, whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:49:27.43 James Ellis Not me. 00:49:27.75 nextlevelguypodcast We're you know we kind of... And we don't want to go past the small talk thing. you know We go, oh, did you see the game? Did you see that? do we Should we aim to start working towards better friendships with guys? Should we go out to look for groups? Should... 00:49:43.96 James Ellis You know, yeah, well, first of all, you do have to be out there. And I'm someone who is of the ah belief that um I like workarounds where I can. You know, I'm i'm not someone who likes to um feel like something is laborious for the most part. So, yeah. 00:50:04.31 James Ellis The example that I give, I moved to my town ah five years ago and change. And I have met so many of my friends because I saw a flyer on on ah kind of a town site that was for a tennis group at down at our town tennis courts. 00:50:22.00 nextlevelguypodcast I've seen your video yet. 00:50:24.73 James Ellis Yeah, and I had lived in Manhattan for many years. Now I'm kind of outside of Manhattan and in ah where I live is outside of Manhattan in more of a village. And ah there's public courts. and i But when living in Manhattan, there's almost no tennis courts. I mean, there are, but it's a very complicated existence to play tennis. So I didn't play tennis for almost 20 years. And I thought I could get back into this. I need some fitness and let let's just see what's going on down there. 00:50:53.30 James Ellis I had a great time. And what what I found was going week after week, it was all the same people. They all lived in my town. And we had an activity that we all loved to share together. 00:51:05.02 nextlevelguypodcast You 00:51:06.24 James Ellis And before I knew it, we were ah finding other places to play tennis because These were outdoor courts and ah you know we could only play when the weather's nice. So we had we found indoor courts, we got courts together. We started um going out for each other's birthdays or having you know just tennis night out. Then there's tennis vacations that we go on together at different places around around the US. And then our families know one another now. So it it was very organic. 00:51:38.52 James Ellis And I think that what I always recommend for people is to try to find places where you can share common interests. I don't know. We don't have in my area still much of that pub culture. I know it because, like I said, I used to work in the UK for a bit and i think in every town had pubs. 00:51:59.19 James Ellis at least one, if not more, ah pubs. 00:52:01.50 nextlevelguypodcast and 00:52:02.15 James Ellis And there was a great pub culture of ah just, you know, going for a pint and watching a game or going for a pint and reading a book or going for a pint and and or dinner and sitting at the bar and chatting with someone else if as they're having dinner or playing chess. 00:52:18.57 James Ellis there so It really seemed like a nice um sort of common space to interact with with others. I always really enjoyed that about um my time living there. 00:52:29.88 James Ellis So we don't have that as much here. So I can't really recommend it. There's still some communities, especially you know if you have like a town where there's a lot of Irish people, there will be a pub and the Irish people do go to the pubs. 00:52:42.20 James Ellis But um I always encourage people to to just find something that they either used to do or or want to do. I also ah had this situation where um when my son was born, 00:52:55.54 James Ellis he's 11 now. I, I loved being with him as a baby, but it's a bit boring, you know, just to sit there and hold the baby and nurse a bit. And there, and I was, um ah you know, had time off work and i' I'm, I'm busy. I've got ants in my pants. I gotta be. busy So I thought, If I could just sit here and I saw people knitting, you know, like knitting hats and knitting sweaters, cardigans. And I thought if I could knit, if I could do something with my hands, ah that would be great. So I went down to a local yarn store. I said, I want to learn how to knit. They had a table of people knitting. 00:53:32.34 James Ellis I'm still friends with some of those women who are in their 70s. 00:53:35.22 nextlevelguypodcast Awesome. 00:53:37.94 James Ellis And also we hang out together. Our families hang out together. i go on vacation with them. We go on knitting retreat. mean, it's it's so funny when you do activities and you you automatically have alignment. You have ah something to resonate with. um So I really encourage people to do activities. now And the one thing I always say about that is don't do a one-off activity. Okay. 00:54:03.16 James Ellis A one-off activity is going to get you nowhere. Like, oh, there's ah um a big yoga class at the park in town um ah this one day. It's to celebrate some moon cycle. 00:54:16.70 James Ellis Well, you might have a nice time. You might be around interesting people, but you're not going to have that repetition. Or um a big thing here is like um paint. you You paint a picture and you drink ah you drink wine. They call it paint and sip. 00:54:30.98 James Ellis It's a one-off experience. They're fun. It's fun to go. And an art teacher tells you what to paint and what to do. And you come home with something nice and you've had a few glasses of wine and there's interesting people around, but it's a one-off. You're never going to see them again. 00:54:43.67 James Ellis So if you do something like a community theater or a volunteer organization, we're an animal shelter where you're showing up at the same time with the same people around, church is if you're a spiritual or religious person these are places that have traditions of ah regular meetings and built-in connection so i think these things are important oh jiu-jitsu yeah oh 00:55:05.08 nextlevelguypodcast For me... I mean, for me recently was a but Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, you know, until I got injured. i ah Because you can't really be nervous or anxious when somebody's trying choke you out. 00:55:17.89 nextlevelguypodcast But you kind of connect to people. 00:55:19.79 James Ellis great yeah 00:55:19.77 nextlevelguypodcast and But then all the people I knew, they were leaving. And I left when I got injured. And I was like, I'm going to go back. I'm going to back. And I'm still being put it off for a while because in my head I'm thinking... 00:55:30.81 nextlevelguypodcast but it's not going be like that. I don't know anybody. Despite the fact that when I went the first time, I didn't know anybody. 00:55:34.42 James Ellis Oh. 00:55:36.24 nextlevelguypodcast And, you know, but it's amazing how your brain, how your brain sort of tricks you in that sense. 00:55:38.68 James Ellis Had a great time. 00:55:42.04 nextlevelguypodcast But then how do we, because you've got a great video where you talk about the the need for gossip, how it's not always a bad thing. And men hate small talk. 00:55:51.13 James Ellis Well, ah yeah. 00:55:52.98 nextlevelguypodcast So how how do we turn that into a connection with people? 00:55:54.36 James Ellis yeah so 00:55:58.10 James Ellis So um one of the things I'll say about my video on gossip is this is my video that went like more viral than anything I expected. And it was kind of just, um I don't know. 00:56:10.26 James Ellis I wish I had done it more, ah a little bit differently because what I wanted to emphasize, I had just been in a therapy session with someone who said that they don't want to be around anyone. 00:56:18.27 nextlevelguypodcast Yep. Yep. 00:56:22.30 James Ellis They don't want to meet people because they're scared that people are going to talk about them when they're not there. And my thought was, yeah, of course they're going to talk about you when you're not there. But what does that matter if they talk about you when you're not there? 00:56:35.46 James Ellis Everyone talks about everyone when not there. It's like a very natural thing to do. People um you know leave and you say, it wasn't so-and-so funny? 00:56:40.22 nextlevelguypodcast europe 00:56:44.26 James Ellis Or um I wish... so-and-so would be nicer to to his wife or to her husband. You debrief. It's it's something that's so natural. And rarely is it anything um that can ah be so detrimental that you... 00:57:02.04 James Ellis It would damage a ah relationship or damage your standing in society. So, so rare. So that was the only point of of my gossip video. I wasn't promoting it because I also respect people who come from beliefs that say it's a sin. It's something we should never do. It's fine to live those values. I think it's great to live those values, but I don't think it's something we should be scared of because I i just assume most people are doing it. 00:57:26.58 James Ellis And I'm still standing. I'm still okay. And I'm still, if if they don't want to be friends with me and they and they and they don't like me and they're saying that, then why would they continue to hang? 00:57:37.55 James Ellis You know, like it it whatever it is that's wrong will eventually work itself out. 00:57:38.78 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. 00:57:43.06 James Ellis um So it's not something to be scared of. But the thing I do promote that I say we all need um is small talk. I get the most... pushback from Europeans. Oh, that's such an American thing, small talk. 00:57:56.92 James Ellis Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it is, it is big in America. It is really big in America. And, and, ah and people will say in America, oh, it's horrible. 00:58:07.95 James Ellis It's a real, like, I don't want to go because it's just going to be small talk. And I think, well, Small talk is fine. it's the It's the building blocks for something deeper. 00:58:19.70 James Ellis and like Unless a deep connection was handed to us, I don't know where else you start. It's the starting place. and And it's kind of like a social lubricant in the way. It just starts to get the wheels greased to go further. But I think a lot is seen in small talk. your Your example at the gym of just, you know, a but collaborating about the the bar with the particular guy led to something more and then something more and then you start feeling oh in this small talk banter something feels good i don't know what it is i don't even need to know but i know i want more 00:58:57.40 nextlevelguypodcast I 00:58:58.39 James Ellis And then you go you go further. And you can also use it to find points of of shared interest. I think what there's one um a colleague who's ah in the in the field of ah psychotherapy and couples therapy, and she calls a small talk platonic flirting. 00:59:17.91 James Ellis you know it's It's like a non-sexual flirting. 00:59:18.03 nextlevelguypodcast love that. 00:59:20.27 James Ellis you know it's just that There's a vitality in it. 00:59:20.83 nextlevelguypodcast Oh. 00:59:22.83 James Ellis And I'm going to go somewhere. I'm going to meet a stranger. i have no idea who they are. and um And I'm going to see if there's any alignment. Now, I think it's easier for me because I do this for living. 00:59:34.24 James Ellis Most healthcare professionals, clinical um ah healthcare care professionals, we're meeting new people all the time. And I think in my field, it's so fascinating. Someone... 00:59:44.76 James Ellis who i haven't I've never met before, comes into my office and we go deep eventually, not in the first session necessarily, not in the second session, but you start to realize that everyone has something fascinating about them. Everyone has something incredibly moving about them. 01:00:04.22 James Ellis And once we're open to that reality, we can see how much vitality there is just in the small talk. 01:00:11.10 nextlevelguypodcast Because that's what took from that video. you know that The gossip video was that you can't just go ah to somewhere and expect oh, you oh how you know you know, I'm now your best mate. 01:00:21.69 nextlevelguypodcast You have to go there and fit in. 01:00:23.37 James Ellis right yeah 01:00:23.65 nextlevelguypodcast You have to do the gossip. You have to do the the cultural whatever the the cultural dance, the verbal dance that the others are doing to find that people that kind of go, wait here, there's a little flag here. 01:00:37.09 nextlevelguypodcast I like this person. Oh, that person. The human Prozac approach. And ah I really like that idea. 01:00:41.78 James Ellis yeah 01:00:43.64 nextlevelguypodcast how then do we go from, oh that's a great guy, really enjoyable conversation to actually, do you know, there's something more we could build a friendship from this? 01:00:56.66 James Ellis I think that's, you know, it depends. It's not going to be every meeting. First, I want people to realize that. That ah social, finding finding someone to to be a friend requires two things. Effort, that's your work, putting yourself out there, doing the small talk. 01:01:16.02 James Ellis ah And the second thing is alignment. And that's something that both people have to find. um It's not only up to you. ah so So there's a ah certain element of that alignment that is out of your control. 01:01:31.35 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. 01:01:31.45 James Ellis It's either there in the chemistry, um it's there in the interest, or it's not. It has to be reciprocal. um But I think it's just you know exactly what you described and what we were just talking about. use You have that motivation to want to go further with this person. 01:01:50.20 James Ellis And it's the same whether it's platonic or romantic. There are things you feel inside that say, yeah, I want more of this. 01:01:59.90 nextlevelguypodcast So say if we use an example, because everybody loves an example. Say me going to jiu-jitsu, new club, never don't know anybody. And I go in and I'm rolling with and this guy and we chat and go, oh, great roll, cheers. Then I see him the next month or the next week or whatever it is, um which chat we chat a wee bit more on that. 01:02:23.38 nextlevelguypodcast When do you start making plans? How do you kind of broach that subject of like, oh, do you know do fancy going for a pint? I'm going to such and such a show. 01:02:32.76 James Ellis Mm-hmm. 01:02:33.32 nextlevelguypodcast How do we move it from casual acquaintances to small talk into that kind of, but especially for guys? Because if you've had a lot of social and isolation, no contact apart from your missus who you're now divorced or you're a young person who's in a society and you're like, 01:02:53.14 nextlevelguypodcast fuck, this is terrifying. how How do we go to that point of, you know, because you've got videos where you say, you know, don't just say, want to go for a drink? Say, I'm going for a coffee on a Thursday night. 01:03:05.18 nextlevelguypodcast want to come with me? I'm going to this. 01:03:06.20 James Ellis Yes. 01:03:07.35 nextlevelguypodcast How specific, you know, how do we get over that fear of the awkwardness, the embarrassment being rejected? 01:03:07.93 James Ellis Right. 01:03:14.19 nextlevelguypodcast But how do we start making plans? How do we do it? 01:03:19.71 James Ellis I think it, yeah, it's a great, it's it's a great question. 01:03:20.00 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. 01:03:22.38 James Ellis And I think it depends on the person. um Some people might need to go slower than others and that's okay. I think you have to listen to your own, um, 01:03:34.14 James Ellis nervous system. I'm someone who can, I think because of what I do and because of my personality, i can do it after the first, um what do you call it? 01:03:44.97 James Ellis Rolling? Is that what you say we say in jujitsu? 01:03:46.46 nextlevelguypodcast Well, it's it's called the role where you basically simulate murder with each other and then you slap hands and go, cheers. 01:03:51.64 James Ellis Yeah. 01:03:52.00 nextlevelguypodcast It's you try to choke each other and go, all right, cheers, mate. 01:03:53.59 James Ellis Yeah. Yeah. 01:03:57.11 James Ellis Right. And and then, and then, yeah. 01:03:57.34 nextlevelguypodcast It's weird sport. 01:03:59.90 James Ellis and Well, I know it's very physical. Yeah. It's like wrestling and, and you, ah and then eventually you, ah you know, your time is up and you go back and you change into your shoes or you change your clothes, whatever. 01:04:11.26 James Ellis And, and, and in that you say, ah I could say something like, so yeah do you live in this town or how, how long have you been doing this for? Or, um what do you The big question where I live, I also did a video about this. The big question where I live is, so what do you do? 01:04:30.62 James Ellis And it's implicit that it's for a living. What is your career? What is your job? That is what everyone says here. 01:04:33.95 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 01:04:35.74 James Ellis And everyone rolls their eyes about it. But I actually think it's a great question. It can lead to so much. There's so much behind. However, even if someone says, ah, just, you know, making ends meet. 01:04:48.78 James Ellis There's a lot behind that. Or someone says, am a trash collector or I am a physical therapist or whatever it is. 01:04:59.58 James Ellis Oh, that's so interesting. How did you get into that? Or like I said, even if it's ah if it's a kind of dejected disappointment, um ah yeah, I've been there too. that that It's tough. Sometimes we just need to make ends meet. Yeah. Yeah. 01:05:13.69 James Ellis you know You can resonate with whatever comes up, or you can use it as ah as a launching pad to the next ah um iteration of that to to make it go deeper. you could You could do that with someone that you've ah just done your jujitsu with for the first time, or... if you see the same people over and over again, it can get progressively ah deeper. Or you can even say something that that is just a little, if if if ah your nervous system is not ready for something like that, you could even just say something like, oh, that was fun, thanks. 01:05:47.51 James Ellis And you shared a little bit about yourself. that that That's something right there to say, I thought that was really fun, thanks. Or... um Or, wow, I'm going to feel that tomorrow, are you? 01:05:59.38 James Ellis Something that that gives you a little mutuality, a little collaboration. and that can be a... 01:06:03.38 nextlevelguypodcast where you can play it safe and keep it comfortable, but not actually that. 01:06:06.65 James Ellis Yeah, keep it comfortable. Yeah, but recognizing we just had some... We just shared in something mutual together, and it was nice. 01:06:15.93 nextlevelguypodcast It's a weird... How would somebody... like Say your friend who's just been divorced and they're wanting to get back out there but they are scared to their bones. The thought of going out and standing at a bar the thought of going out to a social club, to a tennis club, whatever it is that they then want to proceed... 01:06:35.35 nextlevelguypodcast How do you deal with that fear? How do we make it almost more the pressure, the pain point is actually staying home? How do we make it so fun and exciting? 01:06:44.86 James Ellis Yeah. 01:06:46.87 nextlevelguypodcast Do we literally go out and say, if I go through the door, that's a win? you know Do we knock it back that life? 01:06:51.19 James Ellis Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You know i think there's also a myth that, um, is part of contemporary Western culture that we have to clear up anxiety but before we pursue something that um is important to us. 01:07:10.65 James Ellis And one of the things I encourage people to do is imagine what would it be like to go there with your anxiety, to take your anxiety with you to the pub? 01:07:18.76 nextlevelguypodcast So you've got a friend to take out? 01:07:21.08 James Ellis Yeah, yeah you can you can go to the pub with your anxiety. It's not something that needs to be cleared up. What happens is, um the the and i'll also start something else I'll say, is decide to do it in advance. 01:07:35.96 James Ellis When I'm finished with work on Friday, I'm going to the pub. And you decide that on Wednesday or Thursday. You don't wait to say, I'm going to see how I feel on Friday. Right? You determine it in advance. Because what happens is as it gets closer, you start you and you know you have an out, the anxiety starts to build. 01:07:56.28 James Ellis And you start to be more and more in distress. Your system starts to be in distress. And as it increases, you face that that decision of, I could stay home. 01:08:07.14 James Ellis Staying home is an option. And then the the dilemma creates more stress. And then you say, you know what? I'm just going to stay home. and everything decompresses. 01:08:18.78 James Ellis So in a way, what you do is you end up reinforcing the avoidance. You end up, it's like a dog sitting and you give it a cookie. you've get You've reinforced the avoidance and it becomes more powerful. So it is ill-advised to um to avoid. i always say avoid avoiding. um But this is where some people can say, I can challenge myself. Some people, this is this would be the place where I would say, getting a therapist would be helpful. 01:08:51.83 James Ellis You can work on a therapist with a therapist on what's going on in your mind and in your beliefs about yourself, about others that um is is interfering. This is also where I say so to some people, follow Instagram. If someone says, like I feel awkward, 01:09:10.42 James Ellis take social etiquette courses or follow follow um uh people on instagram who teach social skills etiquette skills so you feel because i think when people um feel confident in social skills they're more likely to feel relaxed in a social setting um so that's one of the in in some ways i think the downfall of um uh 01:09:32.20 nextlevelguypodcast yeah 01:09:40.79 James Ellis modern relaxed culture that's kind of egalitarian is that we've lost a lot of the social etiquettes that that helped us know what to do in social settings. 01:09:54.30 James Ellis um So I think that there's lots of different opportunities to address the things that get in the way. But it really does depend on the person, Ian, and what what it is they're facing. Some can challenge themselves to show up even with their anxiety and not let themselves back out. Some would benefit from a therapist. Some would would benefit from just understanding social etiquette and social skills better. There's a lot of different options. 01:10:23.64 nextlevelguypodcast For me, it was that moment I tried to make it like, I weighed it, you know, staying at home to going in and seeing the band I always wanted to see, but no one else I didn't really know anybody or no one else was wanting to come. 01:10:35.96 nextlevelguypodcast And I was like, okay, no, I want to go see them. I would go see some stage shows by myself thinking, am I going to feel awkward? And I would just buy the ticket. I'd forced myself to buy the ticket. And what I realized quickly was Eating by yourself, no one cares. 01:10:49.97 nextlevelguypodcast Going to stage show, there's heaps of people by themselves. 01:10:51.44 James Ellis No one cares. 01:10:52.62 nextlevelguypodcast No one bats an eyelid. It's only when you start acting up fake that people pick up on that. 01:10:54.90 James Ellis Yeah? 01:10:58.02 nextlevelguypodcast If you sit there anxious and a but set and have a pint and you don't want to speak to anybody and keep your head down, fair play. If you were looked at me in a bar and started chatting to me, i' would chat to you. 01:11:10.01 nextlevelguypodcast Not everybody, fair enough, but it's that moment of finding that point that starts small. like I was always taught to speak to everybody the same, from the janitor to the cashier to the CEO. 01:11:23.38 nextlevelguypodcast I'll chat about how's your day going, what's up there. 01:11:24.21 James Ellis Yeah. 01:11:25.96 nextlevelguypodcast When I'm doing stuff at work, it's automatic. In my head, I know how to do the procedural stuff, so I love the small talk. How's your day? have you been up to? How's the weather down there? No matter how boring it is, it can make somebody's day. 01:11:38.65 nextlevelguypodcast It can change their life. you know like 01:11:40.95 James Ellis Absolutely. 01:11:41.78 nextlevelguypodcast And I think that's what may we forget. But you've got a video where you say silence is data. If somebody rejects you, you know that's how do we deal with that? 01:11:49.14 James Ellis we 01:11:52.66 nextlevelguypodcast If we do branch and go, would you fancy going for a pint? Or I'm going to this event. you want to come with me? And somebody says, nah 01:12:01.66 James Ellis One of the essential things, a ah part of life is death and taxes. These are the two certainties in life. And the one that I add to death and taxes is that not everyone's going to like you. 01:12:17.11 James Ellis I think that is something we we have all accepted that death is inevitable. We have all accepted that we have we must pay taxes. And the next thing that we need to accept is that not everyone is going to like us. 01:12:29.05 James Ellis So yeah, it's true. You are going to go out there and you're not going to be everyone's cup of tea. I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea. And that's why there's a bit of a numbers game in this. Because like I said earlier, we have to get ourselves out there and then we have to find that alignment. 01:12:47.13 James Ellis And we're not going to align with everyone. And that's just part of this. And I think when we accept that, sometimes we accept that a little bit easier almost with dating, right? Like we know that not every girl is going to like us, right? That's going that's something that is, you're going to have to date a ah several several women to find the right one or find the one who's going to like you back. 01:13:10.73 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. Mm-hmm. 01:13:11.32 James Ellis and that where that alignment is gonna, but what we don't think about that as much with friends. I always have people tell me when i when I talk about this, like it's kind of the same thing with a job too, in a career, right? Like you go interview at a bunch of companies, the ones you like might not like you, and then you'll find that alignment where you like them, they like you. 01:13:32.09 James Ellis um So that that's a big part of it. And I think accepting that makes it easier for the blows to our ego. 01:13:40.28 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's like with that video where you said something about giving grace to people. It's like when to actually know it's you're giving grace when you're, you know, they've maybe had a bad day, they've forgotten, something's come up to actually being a red flag. 01:13:54.78 nextlevelguypodcast You know, you don't have, it's almost like you're interviewing the the job that you're applying for. You're interviewing the company as much as they're interviewing you for the job. So we should be doing that with our friends, you know, we knowing our boundaries, our lines. 01:14:04.55 James Ellis That's right. Yes. Yes. 01:14:08.66 nextlevelguypodcast But how then, ah think you said somewhere it was about social lives and connections aren't random. 01:14:09.21 James Ellis yes 01:14:16.30 nextlevelguypodcast We have to We have to design them. We have to build them. how How do we make that? 01:14:21.69 James Ellis Yeah. 01:14:22.59 nextlevelguypodcast But especially for somebody who, like, say, who's never gone outside for ages, doesn't really know anybody, and suddenly they've got three events. How do we build that in? But also, how do we not feel tired, knackered from being social? 01:14:37.18 nextlevelguypodcast Because that's also a worry I found when I was out and about with heaps of people. I felt sometimes I wanted to be on my own because I needed to recharge the batteries. 01:14:46.04 James Ellis Yeah, of course. Of course. And I think it's something that we need to listen to. There are all types of um social environments out there and and landscapes where we can find connection and be a part of something. And I think it's important to listen to yourself. Yes, we have to create it. you know that That's the idea of it's it's not these things aren't just handed to us. They're not just created. 01:15:09.14 James Ellis created by accident. I mean, certain parts were born into the family that were born into were born into the town that were born into our village. um And then what we do after that is up to us. ah we We have to build it. 01:15:22.39 James Ellis and And part of it is listening to yourself. what does it feel like to be around John? What does it feel like to be around Robert? What does it feel like to be around this girl? What does it feel like to be around that girl? What does it feel like to be at this pub versus another pub? So listening to how you feel, if I'm really tired, 01:15:42.78 James Ellis then maybe that's telling me something. But also if I'm tired, yeah, maybe my social muscles have just atrophied um and and I'm just not used to this. And I can also ah give myself grace for ah my my response to being a social person again after... 01:16:03.29 James Ellis um so long without it. So yeah, probably. i remember when I first um started it as a clinical psychologist working in hospitals, and I was seeing really severe cases and on, you know, locked psychiatric units where patients are sometimes even like, um, 01:16:22.20 James Ellis you know chained to a bed because they're at risk of hurting. It was it was overwhelming. And I used to come home just exhausted. 01:16:27.66 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 01:16:30.46 James Ellis But that didn't mean that was the wrong environment for me. it mean that It meant I needed to understand it better to get used to it in some way and then know, within a couple of years, I was working on these units and um feeling a sense of accomplishment, feeling like I was being helpful and being energized by the work I was doing there and by the environment. 01:16:51.32 James Ellis So um yeah, it's not always a bad thing. It's just about what it means for you. 01:16:56.24 nextlevelguypodcast It's almost like a video game, isn't it? It's like you level up, you open up, the map goes from gray to you can see the detail as you expand and you're kind of like, oh. 01:17:02.48 James Ellis Sure. Sure. 01:17:05.69 nextlevelguypodcast And I think that sometimes, like I say people, just go and ask the cashier, like, how's your day going? doesn't matter if they don't speak back or if they say, yeah, fine, Hank, you go, all right, cheers. 01:17:15.03 James Ellis Absolutely. 01:17:15.74 nextlevelguypodcast I was speaking to like the door guy giving me the ticket. I was speaking to the person showing me to my seat. I was the barman. like you know I was just like taking any opportunity to speak to people. They probably thought I was annoying at times. 01:17:27.42 nextlevelguypodcast They probably thought I was a good laugh at times. They probably thought I was annoying prick at times. I'm sure the prick a lot a lot more, but... 01:17:33.01 James Ellis Hmm. 01:17:35.86 nextlevelguypodcast I think there's just that. It's just starting isn't it? And would you say to people to build that small village mentality in modern cities? To say hello to your neighbors, to nod to the guy on the bus, to get just make a chance? 01:17:48.41 James Ellis Yes. Yes. 01:17:53.59 James Ellis Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I know it's harder. You know, it's um sometimes I think cities are so diverse that they become sort of lower trust um ah ecosystems in a way. And so a lot of a lot of the reservations in cities, why people pull in is because, you know, 01:18:14.17 James Ellis there's risk in cities ah that that there aren't in a village where you know everyone in the same way. 01:18:19.88 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 01:18:20.15 James Ellis ah So, so there's, when you arrive to a city, you get socialized into that kind of ah walled off, just mind your own business, blinders on type of um experience. 01:18:35.64 James Ellis But even with that, I mean, there cultures within cities. I remember, like I said, many, I'm going back, 01:18:45.12 James Ellis 25, 26, 27 years ago that I was in the UK and Scotland and ah ah and in England and Scotland. And i there was such a difference between um ah certain cities there and the difference between England and Scotland was huge in terms of ah people being open versus closed off. 01:19:08.94 James Ellis I think you can guess which one is probably the more closed off ah 01:19:11.93 nextlevelguypodcast Yes, you've got a new best friend in every bar you go to in Scotland, yes. Even if you don't want one, they're going to chat to you, yes. 01:19:17.85 James Ellis Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember feeling like Scotland was just so welcoming. But sometimes when I was in London, if I would say, excuse me, do you know how to get to Trafalgar Square? 01:19:29.34 James Ellis People are like, why are you talking to me? um it was It was a very different experience. I would get like kind of that feel that coldness and it's difficult, but. 01:19:41.21 nextlevelguypodcast you can sort of see it can't you when people almost take it as a like you're attacking them by saying Morian, how's it going? Because had a friend who said he he was in a small village, went down to Bass to visit his sister in a big city. And he went on the Bass was like, hey, Morian, how's it going? And she was like, no, no, you we don't do that here. 01:20:00.50 nextlevelguypodcast And I was thinking, well, I would just go... aye And like you can cut it off there, but it' you can be nice and just go, hey, are you going? Because we've all seen the little kid coming on the bus or the train. 01:20:11.42 James Ellis Right, right. 01:20:12.49 nextlevelguypodcast or And there's always that person that speaks to you on the And love that because lot of times makes my journey pass quicker. how 01:20:20.41 James Ellis Absolutely. 01:20:21.69 nextlevelguypodcast And how do we know if it's working? you know If we put ourselves out there, if we accept that loneliness is our responsibility, we re-push ourselves to get out there, How do know, like, how do we use social maintenance to maintain our relationships and make sure we're being good friends? But then how do we know it's working? And then even if it does creep back to the loneliness feeling, how do we know when we're slipping and we're doing well? How do we maintain our friendships we're making? how how you know how do learn that skill of keeping it as much as gaining it? 01:21:01.69 James Ellis s It's a good question. and it's not one thing. i would say it depends. It depends on on yourself. It depends on the dynamics and the needs of a relationship. 01:21:13.05 James Ellis One of my um most popular videos or maybe most controversial videos is... 01:21:20.65 nextlevelguypodcast Yeah. 01:21:21.35 James Ellis um a sort of myth buster video that I did on the subject of people saying that they're not in contact with people in their lives. 01:21:33.24 James Ellis And when I ask why they say, because I'm always the one who has to reach out. 01:21:40.58 James Ellis therefore and And it should just be implicit that, yeah, you don't you don't stay connected to people like that. And my question is always why? And I give an example of two, I have two friends I don't even think they know. 01:21:55.70 James Ellis They don't even know one another. They're from different aspects of my life, but both very good friends. And they're both similar in a lot of ways. These these are friends that if I don't reach out to them and set something up, we're not going to see one another. 01:22:09.69 James Ellis We might not even text. um Maybe they'll respond to something on my social media. 01:22:11.81 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 01:22:14.89 James Ellis But in terms of actually getting together, these two people are terrible about reaching out and carrying ah the that the relationship. I have to do it. I have to do it with both of these friends and I can... 01:22:30.91 James Ellis unequivocally say that it is 100% worth it for me. um I happen to be okay with that. I'm an initiator. I can do that. It's not a burden to me. And when I set something up, when they respond, and when we are actually face to face, the amount that these two people give to me, is it surpasses anyone else. 01:22:56.79 James Ellis I can't find it anywhere else. It is such high quality connection that is just so meaningful. They give back both of them. They give back a hundred fold. 01:23:08.63 James Ellis um And so when I think about, i would I would cut them off or stop the friendship because I'm the one who has to reach out. Doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't make sense to me at all. 01:23:20.70 James Ellis um So I think it's it's one of those things where it really depends. Yeah. And I can also with these people go, both of them, um I could go a year or two without seeing them. 01:23:34.17 James Ellis And when we connect, it's like we pick up where we right where we left off and then some. Like the relationship is deepened even without without constant connection. and other relationships kind of fade faster if you're not in constant connection. So it just really depends, Ian. I don't know how to answer that. um other than to say there's just a wide variability and we have to tune into ourselves and our longings and tune into the um dynamics of the relationship and just um respond to it organically. 01:23:53.10 nextlevelguypodcast Thank you. 01:24:06.52 nextlevelguypodcast Because it's like you were saying just now, i mean, there's people i was thinking about where I see them every day and I'm chatty and how was the heads? What you been up to? but How's this? Did you see the game? And then there's a friend I've got called Ryan. 01:24:18.23 nextlevelguypodcast And we've actually voiced this to each other where it feels literally like every time we're together, it's been like five minutes since we've seen each other. We could just get on so well. But he says like, oh, i't he goes, I don't need to speak to somebody for three months. 01:24:28.24 James Ellis That's great. 01:24:31.51 nextlevelguypodcast to still be their friend. I'll pick it up and we'll go straight away. Same with David, by the guy was speaking to at the gym. It's that moment of like, you don't see them every day, but it just feels right because you've built that connection. 01:24:43.91 nextlevelguypodcast and you know, you can speak to them and, 01:24:44.95 James Ellis Yeah, yeah. 01:24:47.58 nextlevelguypodcast I think it's it's this where we go, we don't have any friends, but you've actually got people who you'd say hello to. Maybe the person that you meet for a dinner with, like old work colleagues. Maybe the person that you go for a pint with every once in a blue moon. We don't see them as friends, but there's a sliding scale of what actual connection is. We just think if they're not our best mates, they don't count. 01:25:14.17 James Ellis Yeah, I don't know. um yeah One of the things I'm i'm more concerned with, um and again kind of circling back to the theme of of your next level um podcast or project, is this idea that maintenance and having a social life is about work today. 01:25:37.27 James Ellis it There is an effort component, because that's another myth I hear is, um well, yeah, you know I hang out with this person, or but the it's just a ah lot of work. And i you know I've always heard if it's if it takes a lot of work to stay connected, it's probably a relationship that's not worth having. And I think, why? 01:25:57.82 James Ellis like Some of the best things in life require work. Why not a relationship? Why not a friendship? Why not, um you know, whether even if it's your cousins or family members, 01:26:10.58 James Ellis It's okay if it takes work. And if it takes work to figure out what it and what you need to do to maintain it. we have that we've We've gotten some myths in our lives that govern so much um that work is to be avoided and friendship and social connection should just be this thing that's pure happiness and relaxation. And it's a comfortable couch that you can plop into and it's gonna receive you in the same way every single time. 01:26:40.51 James Ellis our relationship with our immediate family is is not that way relationship with our extended family relationship, ah with, with, um, uh, a romantic relationships. that They don't operate that way. Friendships don't operate that way. 01:26:55.45 James Ellis Work relationships don't operate that way. 01:26:57.34 nextlevelguypodcast that 01:26:58.97 James Ellis Relationships take work. They just do. And, and part of it is figuring out what's needed to maintain it. 01:27:04.98 nextlevelguypodcast And a lot of times it's family. 01:27:05.18 James Ellis Yeah. And that's why I love. Hmm. 01:27:08.73 nextlevelguypodcast A lot of times it's family that needs the most work. The ones you're stuck with. 01:27:12.09 James Ellis It is. And I think I'd 01:27:13.24 nextlevelguypodcast was 01:27:15.61 James Ellis Yes, of course, because where the roots go go deeper, um there can be more tangles. they're They're much more complicated relationships. And that's another big thing today is people think, well, gosh, yeah. 01:27:27.58 James Ellis so I just moved to ah to New York and i've I met some people at jujitsu and they're so easy to get along with, but my father and my brother, god it's always complicated. 01:27:39.11 James Ellis And i'm like i was thinking, why would you compare someone you've just met to the people you grew up in the same household with. It's just like, of of course it's going to be more complicated. 01:27:50.00 James Ellis You've been through so much more together. You've known each other at different developmental stages of your life. It's yeah. So, so don't compare apples and oranges. 01:27:59.25 nextlevelguypodcast I think you've got a great video on that where you look at ah new friends, how that's easy because they're new where you versus people who you know for a long time because you have that emotional connection. 01:28:05.94 James Ellis Yeah. 01:28:09.89 nextlevelguypodcast You have the history, the bonds, the spikes, the lows, the... Because that is part of the show is i wanted to rebuild myself. And I thought there's so many guys who are struggling. 01:28:20.76 nextlevelguypodcast If we do break down part of our life that we struggle with and build it from the ground up. And that's kind of why I love this kind of chat because, A lot men are going, what do I do? I don't know. And to have somebody like you who can go out there with your such easy to listen to detailed videos that feel like it's just a best mate talking. It doesn't feel like you're ah like a clinical person. you know You're not like somebody who's making a big fuss of it, you're just saying, come on, well you put a cup of tea down, chat. 01:28:53.91 nextlevelguypodcast And you help people feel better about themselves. you know But if we were starting to rebuild ourselves and you're saying, OK, make your little, around your house, your neighbors, et cetera, a small village mentality, say hi to them, et cetera. 01:29:10.36 nextlevelguypodcast Loneliness is your responsibility. We can change. What challenges would you give to somebody just now who's maybe not had any friends for ages, maybe come out a divorce, whatever is. 01:29:20.86 nextlevelguypodcast What would you want them to start doing? 01:29:24.12 James Ellis Engage in an activity where there are other people there. 01:29:30.09 nextlevelguypodcast And is there any conditions to it? 01:29:30.66 James Ellis That's it. 01:29:33.98 James Ellis One that meets regularly. and one where there's communication. as Someone recently said, I go to a classical movie night club where they play a classical movie in a movie theater. um And I'm hoping to meet people there. And i was like, but you don't talk during movies. So like, why? 01:29:52.34 James Ellis That sounds like a terrible, or i'm I'm trying to meet, I go, I'm going to a new meditation center. And I'm like, you don't talk and it isn't the point of meditating to be silent? So yeah, there are some conditions, but get out and go to an activity. 01:30:05.94 nextlevelguypodcast to our two hours of sitting there. 01:30:06.14 James Ellis do an activity, partake in something. If if you don't have an act. Yeah. Yeah. Sitting there amongst people. But, and if you don't have an activity that you like to do, go to a church, go to a um a volunteer opportunity, a shelter, a school. um i would say my mother ah moved down to Florida, gosh, 10 years ago. and she, she, 01:30:31.70 James Ellis goes to a school and there's kindergartners who aren't able to read or first graders and and the teacher needs like one-on-one time, that the students need one-on-one time that the teacher can't give. 01:30:42.34 James Ellis So they send her out to the hallway with my mom and she gets to know all of the teachers, all of the assistants, the principals, and those are the people now she's hanging out with. 01:30:49.86 nextlevelguypodcast Mm-hmm. 01:30:52.52 James Ellis um so so And it's just a volunteer opportunity. So there's always something you can do, even if it's not tennis or basketball or um being in a jazz band because you don't play an instrument. 01:31:07.13 James Ellis You can always be of service. 01:31:09.31 nextlevelguypodcast I love that. It's like give back to others. You know, it's fine to find a skill that you've got. 01:31:13.54 James Ellis Yeah. 01:31:14.73 nextlevelguypodcast There's always people wanting to learn how to use computers better. If you're good with computers, show them. 01:31:19.35 James Ellis Yeah. 01:31:19.78 nextlevelguypodcast They want to know how to do social media. You could teach them. There's always these kind of people who want help or, you know, like want to dig garden the community gardens. 01:31:24.39 James Ellis That's right. 01:31:29.60 nextlevelguypodcast They're always like allotments who are looking for people to help. 01:31:31.35 James Ellis Oh, community gardens are great. yeah 01:31:33.27 nextlevelguypodcast um I mean, I've used up so much your time. 01:31:34.10 James Ellis Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 01:31:35.43 nextlevelguypodcast I'd love to have you back on because I feel like we're just getting into it. And you're so easy to chat to. I knew from your videos, like I took so much from your videos going, 01:31:42.00 James Ellis Likewise. 01:31:45.74 James Ellis I'm so glad. 01:31:46.31 nextlevelguypodcast It's like you knew me without actually meeting me at the time. 01:31:49.46 James Ellis okay 01:31:49.43 nextlevelguypodcast i was listening going, that makes so much sense. That really hits home. And I love with the T, it feels less clinical. It feels like just two pals sitting chatting and you're doing like life changing work. 01:32:02.42 nextlevelguypodcast Does it affect you going into that depth with people going into the the fight with them? 01:32:03.22 James Ellis I appreciate it, Ian. 01:32:07.67 James Ellis Yes. Absolutely. the The work I do, i um feel so privileged to do, and it gives back to me tenfold. Yeah. But what's interesting, these people that I go so deep with are not my friends. 01:32:24.94 James Ellis I'm not their friends. We have a very different relationship. 01:32:27.65 nextlevelguypodcast I 01:32:27.78 James Ellis It's it's scheduled in an hour in a week. And then they feel better. And my job is to get myself fired from the relationship because they feel better. 01:32:38.97 James Ellis So, yeah, but it but it is very meaningful. 01:32:39.57 nextlevelguypodcast suppose that's the thing. yeah You're not meant to, you're meant to get rid of them. 01:32:42.17 James Ellis Yeah, yeah. 01:32:44.72 nextlevelguypodcast It's almost like a dating coach, you know? 01:32:46.68 James Ellis I meant to have them get rid of me. i i meant for them to get rid of me if I've done my work well. 01:32:50.20 nextlevelguypodcast ah Yeah. You need to be fired by by being successful with them. 01:32:52.47 James Ellis Yeah. 01:32:55.00 nextlevelguypodcast yeah it's It's a strange dichotomy. 01:32:56.06 James Ellis Yeah. yeah 01:32:57.28 nextlevelguypodcast Well, I cannot honestly thank you enough. 01:32:58.46 James Ellis Yeah. 01:32:59.70 nextlevelguypodcast I mean, I could talk to you for hours yet, I know you're probably busy. You've got stuff to do. 01:33:03.70 James Ellis Likewise. Likewise, Ian. Yeah. 01:33:05.05 nextlevelguypodcast um So we've got to do a round two and go with it it's a deep dive in. But for the first one, I would always like to kind of highlight the key things. And I try not to go down too many rabbit holes. But are there things about loneliness that you find people are constantly leaving in your comments? Things that people are going, oh no, but it's actually this. And you're like, no, no, that's just a myth. Are there construed things you just go, I wish we could just kill that now. 01:33:30.30 nextlevelguypodcast It's not what is. 01:33:31.67 James Ellis Yes, I would say one thing is the wish that people could control other people. That is something that I wish people could divest from. And I come from... 01:33:45.11 James Ellis being a controlling person myself and and a family where that was advantageous for me to really feel like I could make people do what I needed them to do in order for me to be okay. 01:33:57.20 James Ellis It's just gotten so pervasive. This is probably the number one comment. um What if I do this and people don't respond? What if I do this and and someone doesn't like me? What if i do what if i I'm doing all the work and people don't don't ah ah you know pick up the slack? 01:34:16.31 James Ellis And I just always want to say, yeah you can't control other, it your inner peace cannot be governed by what other people do or don't do. you And there's there's a big um ah podcaster right now and self-help guru, Mel Robbins, have you heard of her? 01:34:31.44 nextlevelguypodcast Oh yeah. 01:34:31.77 James Ellis She has this let them let them theory, right? Yeah, I love this. 01:34:34.40 nextlevelguypodcast I love that. a 01:34:36.31 James Ellis You have to let them. you Let them be them so you can be you. you know that's a big And I think relationships really change when we stop needing other people to be a certain way in order for us to feel okay. We need to be be okay because we're taking care of ourselves and pursuing our values. And We are not going to be everyone's cup of tea. 01:35:01.08 James Ellis ah Not everyone is going to like me. 01:35:01.13 nextlevelguypodcast And 01:35:02.68 James Ellis Not everyone is going to like you. Not everyone is going to want to be my friend. Not everyone is going going to want to date me. Not everyone is going to want to date you. But you will find, if you put yourself out there, you're going to find alignment. 01:35:14.68 James Ellis You will. 01:35:15.74 nextlevelguypodcast And if you don't find the right people or they say that, it's like you said earlier, silence is data. If they reject you, that's just a sign that they're not aligned at that right moment to take new friends on. 01:35:26.86 nextlevelguypodcast Or maybe we we just don't connect. Great. That means I don't need to focus this much on that person. Still be nice to you. That can go to that person and that person. 01:35:33.67 James Ellis That's right. That's right. 01:35:34.78 nextlevelguypodcast look There's 7 billion. but If we all like each, you if each person likes you, you're either being very fake or there's something very, very wrong. 01:35:44.34 James Ellis Absolutely. Absolutely. 01:35:46.81 nextlevelguypodcast So, ah talking it back on, I do honestly think that if you were there doing programs for kids and stuff of that, we wouldn't have a lot of the issues we have today. 01:35:58.04 nextlevelguypodcast you know The stuff you're doing now is so much more needed. 01:35:59.47 James Ellis Okay. 01:36:02.65 nextlevelguypodcast It should be much more viral than the Kardashians and stuff like that because you are actually changing lives. 01:36:08.41 James Ellis treatment it Yeah. 01:36:09.62 nextlevelguypodcast you know Because you're doing things where you know you're changing lives, but it's a thing we don't do because it's scary, because it can lead to loneliness can lead to suicide. 01:36:20.38 nextlevelguypodcast It can lead to people acting up, and you know being hermits, being hoarders, being puvend whatever whatever. 01:36:21.62 James Ellis Yeah. yeah 01:36:29.69 nextlevelguypodcast I think it's scary. So it's it's better to go, oh, look at this pretty girl, than it is to go, actually... You can fix that, but it just needs a bit of work. what What do you want people to remember from this? 01:36:40.34 James Ellis Right. 01:36:42.02 nextlevelguypodcast Because I'd love to have you on again and go into deeper stuff. But for this, what would you want people to remember? 01:36:46.10 James Ellis Sure. 01:36:49.21 James Ellis That loneliness is not a personal failure. Right now it's a cultural condition that we're all embedded in, but you can build connection by being intentional and by being open to working hard at it. 01:37:03.22 James Ellis That's what I want people to take away from this. 01:37:05.95 nextlevelguypodcast Love that. And how can we follow you? you know Because you deserve TED Talks, you deserve to have programs that everybody signed up to, a curriculum in schools, et cetera. 01:37:12.02 James Ellis Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 01:37:16.16 nextlevelguypodcast How can we follow this journey? 01:37:17.43 James Ellis Well, right now, ah i am exclusively on Instagram. My New Year's resolution is to get on YouTube because that is something people request is longer form videos. 01:37:27.67 nextlevelguypodcast Yes. 01:37:30.93 James Ellis ah So perhaps by the time you get all of this edited and up, I will have my first YouTube video. i am I'm still working out how I can make that happen, but that'll be a goal. 01:37:43.68 James Ellis But right now it's Instagram, lonelinessdoctor.com. 01:37:47.54 nextlevelguypodcast Well, I'll hit stop 01:37:48.06 James Ellis And that's it. 01:37:50.36 nextlevelguypodcast well our head stop